But at least in the case of parent and child, there is true love behind the discipline. We do punish our children for their own good, or at least we think we do. - So they'll be considerate of others, so they'll learn the value of a dollar, so they'll keep from killing themselves, etc. We're big, they're small, and they're our responsibility. So, for the first decade or two of our children's lives, we're forever on their case - lecturing, nagging, lending endless advice, and otherwise driving them completely crazy. Out of love.
But when the "for your own good" argument is used on adults it too often becomes an excuse for abuse. Such is the case with LDS Church disciplinary councils - or so-called "courts of love."
"Love" is one of those big words that Mormon leaders don't understand.
This week when Ordain Women founder, Kate Kelly, learned that she had been excommunicated by an LDS "court of love," she reportedly sobbed uncontrollably.
Meanwhile, shortly after Kelly's expulsion became public, the LDS General Young Women's President, Bonnie L. Oscarson issued a video statement, claiming:
"Those who are struggling for whatever reason should be able to find within our sisterhood a spirit of warmth, inclusion, and love."Warmth? Inclusion? Love? Anyone out there buying that? I'm very relieved to hear that Kate Kelly isn't. When asked if she believed her leaders were ostracizing her for her own good Kelly replied:
"That's classic language of an abusive relationship, where a person abusing and hurting you says they're doing it out of love."Kudos to Kate for standing firm. For recognizing that abuse is not love and for realizing that nothing less than equality for women will do. I wish her and the brave members of Ordain Women success as they champion their cause.
Bridget Jack Jeffries said it best in her op-ed in Wednesday's Salt Lake Tribune:
"If you have to constantly reassure someone that you really do love them, value them and respect them, it may be because your actions are telling a different story. In any case, there is no such thing as equality without equal access to authority. Therefore, any talk of Mormon women being equal to Mormon men free from ordination to the priesthood is perfect nonsense."And the male church leaders' claim that they love women and consider us as equals? An empty assertion that bears no resemblance to reality.
But then, "reality" is another one of those big words that Mormon leaders don't understand.
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I agree with pretty much everything you are saying.
ReplyDeleteI think, though, people have to understand that the Mormon church, like the Catholic church, wants to keep the church as closely aligned as possible to what the church that Jesus Christ established. It seems as though these two religions (churches) don’t believe that Jesus ever ordained women to hold any ‘office’ in the church. In other words, apostles were all male as were all other governing persons (as far as we know and/or these two churches want to believe).
I mean, really, it’s not for Kate Kelly to dictate to any church what that church should be doing. She can ask the prophet head of the LDS church to ‘enquire of the Lord’, but Kate has been doing far more than that—she was rabble-rousing and making ‘scenes’. And when asked not to, she became even more outspoken and turned up the activist heat.
I personally have no problem with women holding the priesthood and acting as officiating leaders in any capacity, be it a church or a secular enterprise, but Kate Kelly was really out of order. If she feels this strongly and can’t abide by the LDS membership guidelines, then she needs to form her own church.
So I am agreeing with a lot what you are saying with regards to ‘courts of love’ (what a load that is), but I still think ANY organization has the right to maintain the boundaries of its own rules. I don’t think they should have excommunicated Kate Kelly, though. I don’t believe in excommunication except for ‘way out there’ reasons, e.g., someone caustically and continually trying to destroy the church any way they can, and clearly Kate Kelly wasn’t doing anything even remotely close to that sort of thing. She should have been ignored, marginalized, or even formerly disfellowshipped as the most extreme action, but certainly not excommunicated.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Me from Cali!
DeleteI'm not sure I'd call Kate a "rabble-rouser" though. She and her followers staged pretty peaceful protests. I'm sure church leaders would have preferred to marginalize her. In fact, they even refused to meet with her. But ignoring her only made her movement stronger. Excommunicating her may have a similar effect. We shall see.
Of course the LDS Church can set its own rules, and people like Kate can protest them. Churches can also change their rules -- as the Mormons did when they eliminated polygamy and included African American males in their PH.
Many Protestant churches have begun to ordain women and gays; and they are performing gay marriages. It will be interesting to see how the Mormons address these issues.
Keep in mind as well, that LDS women do perform ‘priesthood’ (or should I say ‘priestesshood’) ordinances in the church’s temples. Also keep in mind that women, along with their husbands are told in the temple endowment ceremony, “if you are true and faithful, the day will come when you will be chosen, called up, and anointed kings and queens, priests and priestesses, whereas you are now anointed only to become such. The realization of these blessings depends upon your faithfulness.” This means that when a woman receives her ‘second anointing’ this is when she _does_ become fully vested as a priestess, i.e., she is no long just a mere ‘candidate’.
DeleteAlso of note, I believe that women, during the years of the LDS church’s founding, did do ‘laying on of the hands’ blessings for the sick, although that might have been done ‘in the household of faith’ and not by virtue of the ‘power of the priesthood’—I’m not quite sure about that—but to be sure it is not longer an acceptable practice for women to perform.
So, there are a lot of things with regard to women and the priesthood that are nebulous, contradicting, or don’t seem to ‘add up’ in some ways regardless of whether Christ historically ordained women or not. What is of note is that the LDS church _does ascribed_ to women holding the priesthood in the ways described above.
I might also mention that even though this is the Internet and you folks don’t know me from Adam’s cat, I have a very close family member (a widow) who had her SA. Hence, I strongly suspect that this ordinance isn’t so uncommonly practiced contrary to what many people, it seems, think.
Interesting! I've heard that the SA became more commonplace during Hinckley's presidency. A British man named Tom Phillips described his SA after he left Mormonism. He's the guy who recently brought the UK lawsuit for fraud against President Monson. Sort of makes Kate look tame. :)
DeleteJesus was quite the rabble-rouser himself. "The Church, " or whatever one wants to call the movement Jesus led, wasn't quite the white bread, white shirts and ties, clean-shaven conservative establishment. then that it is now.
DeleteYeah. I've always had a problem with that Jesus in a business suit model that the LDS Church adhere's to.
DeleteKate finds herself in an difficult position because she loves and believes in the Mormon Church. Many of us, myself included, walked away by our own choice. My excommunication was simply viewed as tying up loose ends it was more about the church cleaning it's records than anything else. I could have cared less about the church or anything they had to say by that time.
ReplyDeleteWhen two members of the bishopric came to my house and the bishop asked me if I was interested in repenting I was able to look him in the eye; call him by his first name, and tell him that I had no need to repent. My life was good and my conscience was clear. I told him a lot of other things too that I won't mention here ;o).
My point is that for Kate, and many like her, who are kicked out of a church they truly believe in is extremely painful. She isn't really where many of us are (totally sarcastic and true non-believers) and she isn't a member in good standing. She's somewhere in between. I would love, one day, to sit down with her, have a glass of whisky and discuss life.
Since she's not quite ready to do that I'll simply raise my glass and say 'here's to Kate, John and all the others who are struggling to make sense of a crazy ass church.'
in reply to 'Me from Cali' I don't agree that people should simply keep quiet and choose to live within the rules and boundaries of the church or leave and build their own church.
ReplyDeleteI think that because of agitators, like Kate, the church has had to look at themselves through her eyes. I believe they've made a few good changes (albeit very small ones) because of Kate and OW.
Personally, I'm glad that this whole debacle shines a light on how sexist and bigoted the church is. Investigators of the church might think twice before signing up to be in an abusive relationship. I'm glad this kind of pressure is being put on the leadership of LDS corp. Maybe one day they'll think about being a more compassionate and loving organization.
Thanks JJ, for this and your above reply. I do feel for Kate. And I agree this shines a light on the LDS Church's bigoted policies. It also demonstrates the callous way it treats its members. I'm still shaking my head over the fact that she'd moved to UT but was excommunicated in VA…crazy ass church indeed.
DeleteAlso too cool what you said to that bishop who dropped by to see if you'd "repented."
The documents that chronicle the actions of Jesus Christ were written after his lifetime be men in a society that was patriarchal, and even then, they acknowledge the presence of women in his circle of followers. Paul had a woman mentor named Martha who got edited out of the New Testament centuries later. All of this is to say, "Are we sure Jesus didn't ordain women?"
ReplyDeleteExcellent point, Marion. Also Mormons claim to have this doctrine of "continuing revelation" that would and has enabled them to change policy. So far the men in charge haven't been inspired to extend their PH to women, though.
DeleteAs 'Me from Cali' mentioned the Second Anointing is a great way for women to get the Priesthood ~~ and then stay very very quiet about it.
ReplyDeleteOf course, IMHO, the men in the LDScorp don't have the Priesthood either. They have something Joseph Smith passed on to them that he claimed was bestowed upon him by John the Baptist.
But that's just my opinion and my opinion holds no more water than anyone else's opinion. Maybe one day Kate Kelly will resolve her own dissonance and who knows how that will turn out. In the meantime I put my arms around her and empathize with her pain.
I feel for her too, Jill. And yes, my reaction to this has always been -- why do these women want made-up magical powers? Or underwear? But I understand that they obviously don't see it that way.
Delete"Courts of love"? I can't think of anything more loveless. The LDS' treatment of Kelly is about punishing the disobedient and making a display of power, not love.
ReplyDeleteVery nice post. Mormonism is a fundamentally narcissistic belief system. And I say that as someone who was steeped in its doctrines and culture from birth.
ReplyDeleteI understand fighting for gender equality. I don't understand wanting to belong to a misogynistic organization that was founded by a misogynist and is premised upon fundamentally misogynistic doctrines. The Mormon Church could accurately be called "The Cult of Misogyny."
Kate Kelly and other Mormon women who want true equality are looking for it in the wrong place, IMO. They should run, not walk away.
Yes, Ahab, they are called courts of love. Pretty twisted. And AT, I agree with you. I'm very glad I walked away. While it may not have been her intent, I think Kate has done a pretty good job of encouraging others to do the same.
ReplyDeleteIt'll be interesting to see if John Dehlin gets the same treatment.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. So far his trial has been postponed indefinitely.--As far as I know anyway.
DeleteBecause I don't have what Kate Kelly had invested in the church and because I never for a moment thought it was true -- my mom told me it was nonsense from the time I was old enough to have a clue about what she was talking -- I can't begin to identify with what she's going through or to truly empathize with her. From my perspective, why would a person want to belong to a church of lies, anyway?
ReplyDeleteI do understsand that it has to be more significant in every way and mostly more painful when one is coming at it from Kate Kelly's perspective. I just wish her peace.
Someone here with more talent than I should write a song about "The Court of Love." It could be sung in primary to keep those little boogers clinging to the Iron Rod.
I'm kind of surprised there isn't a "court of love" Primary song!
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